Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

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Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby lasersafe1 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:36 pm

Bought a small sample of the Cermark from LaserBits.com. It works, but I'm not highly impressed. It looks much like something from a printer and is not actually an "engraving" in the metal. I had made the false assumption that somehow the molybdenum would burn with such intense heat as to melt the stuff into the surface. It actually only forms a ceramic type mark by the mix of molybdenum and silica that melts and tightly adheres to the the surface. When you scratch it hard enough, it comes off.

Knowing that the Cermark is made with moly, I took some moly anti-seize grease and smeared it on some stainless. Wow! there is some really bright flashing and surface "explosions" as it burns on the surface. It actually left more of a "permanent" mark than the Cermark did, but it was a heat burn with barely any color contrast.

Next I tried some heat sink compound because I know it is made of aluminum oxide. Again, this produced some interesting explosions and some heat damage on the stainless steel.

I think I might see what happens to laser printer toner. Should melt and stick fairly well. Or maybe a mix of toner and anti-seize compound. Careful to not use the "patented" compounds to make a profit.
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Re: Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby bdring » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:14 pm

I often wondered if ceramic glaze for pottery would work. It might melt and bond to the surface.
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Re: Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby lasersafe1 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:36 pm

Might work. It's all kind of funny because I ran into a post on another forum and people were talking about this. Then came one of the chemical engineers from TherMark who proceeded to chastise the group and claimed that not only do they hold the patent for the solution, but they also hold the patent for the process of using a CO2 laser to mark metal.... as if they can tell you that you are not allowed to produce a mark on metal without their permission. I hold a patent myself and I know that they are only worth what you are willing to pay your lawyer to prosecute. If Joe Schmo is making his own solution and marking things in his garage for his own use, then there are no damages that can be claimed in a lawsuit. It might be worth noting the the light bulb was actually invented some 78 years before Thomas Edison started his work. If some idiot had told him that he can't try to improve upon it then we would all still be in the dark. Patent hounds really piss me off.
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Re: Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby kylelnsn » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:12 pm

Let the testing begin..........
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Re: Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby r691175002 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:52 pm

I've been wanting to test Vitra 160 paints for a while ( http://en.pebeo.com/Creative-leisure/De ... Vitrea-160 ).

Some guys paint it on manually to make solder masks for circuit boards but since it sets with heat I suspect that you can raster it and wipe off the paint that didnt get lasered.
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Re: Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby lasersafe1 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:11 pm

Any testing of the Vitra 160 paints yet? I bet this would be great on ceramic tile.
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Re: Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby twehr » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:01 pm

This looks interesting. It is carried by our local Blick Art Supply store so I will likely try to get there this weekend so I can try it.

A couple of things I have learned about it so far:
1. They suggest using it on transparent items - clear glass, etc. as the back lit colors are really intense.
2. They suggest letting it dry for 24 hours before "baking".
3. They have a couple of different viscosities - one for paining on and leaves a thin coat after baking, and a thicker one for a thicker texture when done.

One obvious question is: How easily can you remove the paint that was not "baked" by the laser?

I'll try to get their paint, the thick stuff, and the markers, so I can report on all three.

Hopefully, I can provide some info on the weekend or early next week.
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Re: Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby twehr » Tue May 03, 2011 3:01 pm

I bought both the Vitrea 160 (for glass) and the Porcelain 150 (obviously for porcelain) and worked with them this past weekend. Neither gave the kind of results that we might have imagine, but I do see some potential, none the less.

In both cases, the first issue is that it is nearly impossible to apply a smooth, consistent coat. Porcelain and glass are both so slick that it is hard to apply evenly. Look at the two "before" shots below and you can see what I mean.

[photo - porcelain before]
Porcelain Before.png


[photo - glass before]
Glass Before.png


The paints can be thinned, with water or with Pebeo's thinning solution. I tried water and in deed did get a very thin mixture that was more consistent, but not nearly solid enough for what I was trying to do. Playing more with the mixtures may have produced better results. I'll work with in the future.

I am also thinking that it may be possible to get a smooth and consistent application by using an airbrush. I plan to pick up a cheapy at the hobby shop just to try it.

The second issue was how to remove the paint once it has dried (but not cured/baked). You are supposed to wait 24 hours after painting before baking. I waited about 20 hours before doing anything with it. I was not able to remove the paint from the glass or porcelain using water or acetone. So I suspect that even if the "baking" with a laser would work, you would still have issues removing the undesired part.

I thought that, given the difficulty of removing unused paint, it might be useful to remove the undesired paint with the laser and leave the rest to be baked in the oven the way it was intended. I ran tests on both the porcelain and glass. On the porcelain, you can see that I each test either removed too little or too much. The best one (as far as paint removal) removed the glossy service of the tile as well.

[photo - porcelain after]
Porcelain After.png


On the glass, however, I got some interesting results. In the photo, you can see that it removed the paint nicely and provided a very nice frost to the underlying glass. I think this could have some applications - frosted glass with various colors of design/wording. (note - I did this rounded glass without the rotary attachment - waiting for it to arrive for testing)

[photo - glass after]
Glass After.png


All in all, I am not thrilled with any of it, except possibly for the reverse etching on the glass and baking the remaining paint. The effect of the light coming through the glass and paint is very nice. I will continue to play with this, as I still have the paints. Maybe the airbrush combined with negative engraving will be usable, but time to paint, time to dry, time to etch, and time to bake adds up to a lot of time - not sure if the public's perceived "value" will bear the cost of the time.
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Re: Cermark, Thermark, and DIY marking solutions

Postby r691175002 » Tue May 03, 2011 6:37 pm

Id try various solvents on baked and unbaked paint. Ideally there will be something that removes the unbaked paint but not after baking.

I'd also consider a slow low power raster on wet paint followed by rinsing in water. It might be possible to apply the right amount of heat to dry/bake the paint while it is still wet.
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Pottery Glaze.

Postby bdring » Tue May 03, 2011 6:54 pm

Someone should try pottery glaze.
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